6.5

Michael heim defines hypertext as-

“printed text as a basis for a techonlogy that considerably extends writing’s reach and repetoire by removing text from the single dimension it has on the printed page”

after reading this quote and doing this week’s readings on hypertext, a book my sister was showing me a few weeks ago instantly came to mind. while the book is classed as ‘post-modern’ fiction, I immediately thought of it after reading the definition of hypertextual narrative. but I’m not going to tell you why. I’m just going to show you-


while postmodernism and hypertextual narrative might not be the same thing, jay bolter states in literature in the electronic space that “hypertext is a vindication of postmodernist literary theory“. there are obvious connections between postmodernism and hypertextual narrative and while they may differ when you come down to specifics, mark danielewski’s house of leaves sure looks, feels and sounds to me like a hypertextual narrative. it plays with the written form itself as well as having stories within stories, interwoven narratives, segments, other type of texts like images and poems within the story, etc and ultimately looks like a headache to read. there are even entire segments which appear like ‘windows’ in the middle of the books, showing the text backward… are you really going to sit there with a mirror and read the backward text? ain’t nobody got time for that. personally, I am in two minds about this form of narrative, and by extension hypertextual narrative. the student and artist in me wants to say ‘oh how original and brilliant, what a challenging yet rewarding way to experience a narrative’ and respect the sheer expansiveness that this sort of a medium offers…
the other (more cynical) part of me wants to say, in a nutshell, what this person has so eloquently written in a review of house of leaves-

“I wish there were some way that a sigh could count as a book review… I think it’s a really great story. However, House of Leaves is the perfect definition of bullshit… This book looks at you with this smug fucking smile on it’s face, daring you to say that you don’t like it, knowing that masses of people are going to go along with it because they don’t want to look stupid. That’s what this is. It’s the fucking Radiohead of books. Well, House of Leaves, I am not stupid and I’m calling your bullshit. Fuck you.”

…and to be honest, the guy kind of has a point. hypertextual narrative is a little bit pretentious. it almost seems like an excuse for authors to churn out pages upon pages of meaningless dribble in the name of ‘art’. it puts pressure on its readers to make associations and understand greater concepts or ideas and, by extension, makes them feel stupid if they can’t engage, or just don’t ‘get it’. did it come to be just because author’s got too lazy writing stories that were engaging enough in their normal format? maybe I’m just being too skeptical. maybe I am thinking more about postmodern literature than hypertextual narrative. after all, the two aren’t necessarily the same thing (even though the definition of hypertextual narrative seems to describe “house of leaves” down to the last letter). maybe there is some big difference between the two that I’m not getting (and my guess is I’m going to get a comment on this sooner or later explaining what that is) either way, here are some point form notes from the readings –

the digital word and image, even on the web, does not inevitably produce hypertextual narrative

hypertext is as much a concept in itself a technology

“veer toward a narrative…not entirely dependent on linearity, causality, and probable characterisation” – Tom McHarg

“a fictional text must be stretched, skewered, and sliced if it is to exploit the freedoms and accept the responsibilities offered by hypertext technology and its new writing spaces”

can be one main narrative or narrative segments and entirely fictional stories which are weaved together by these

1. reader choice intervention and empowerment
2. inclusion of extralinguistic texts (images, motion, sound)
3. complexity of networked structure
4. degrees of multiplicity and variation in literary elements such as plot, characerisation, setting

hypertext calls into question
1. fixed sequence
2. definite beginning and ending
3. a story’s certain definite magnitude
4. the conception of unity or wholeness associated with all these other concepts

hypertext as a lens or agent of new perception, to reveal something previously unnoticed or unnocticable

authors can write in such a way to provide the reader with informed choices

the authors either prefer authorial power, readier disorientation or both

doing away with a fixed linear text does away with all linearity or removes formal coherence

parataxis > repeitition rather than sequence

Bolter says of Joyce’s interactive hypertext “there is no single story of which each reading is a version, because each version determines the story as it goes. we could say that there is no story at all: there are only readings”

how can hypertext have a beginning when the novel follows from the beginnings each reader chooses?

‘start here’ approach comes from some writer’s reluctance to disorient readers upon initial contact with a narrative

hypertextual fiction should change our experience of the middle but not the beginnings of narrative fiction

you need closure, equilibrium, conclusion when experiencing a text

many points of closure within the text, rather than one definite ‘ending’

 

 

6.

there were some points raised in the unlecture about how navigation is trivial and hypertext isn’t about navigation. it is merely present due to necessity and creating an interface which readers can navigate.

using language or quotes in a different context > taking what adrians said and putting it in a different context > we infer our own meanings and take different things > gap between delivering information and receiving information

hypertext is a form that willingly embraces the fact that writing has multiple meanings and the reader can infer what they desire, we can’t guarantee the delivery of our message and the way we intend it because there is always a level of subjectivity to the receiving and interpretation to certain information. we bring our own knowledge, mood, perception and links to everything we digest, therefore one person’s reading of a text might differ dramatically to somebody else’s. in fact, given the day and your own mood, your own reading of a text might change in a different sitting. you take different things from the text on different days, see different meanings, the interpretations are endless.

this made me digress mentally and think about grammar and text itself, and how sometimes what you want to say gets seriously misconstrued, due to forgetting a simple thing as a comma –

reading text on a computer or in a message or blog is very different from spoken or delivered text. while there are already problems with interpretation in person (there is always a void between delivery and acceptance, something we looked at in another of my subjects, communication histories and technologies) there are even more when you are reading a couple of typed keystrokes or letters on a screen. you might message somebody with one intention, but have it come across in an entirely different way because that person interpreted the lack of punctuation, number of characters or choice of words as anger or shortness. it is very difficult to gage what somebody says or means with written or typed text as there isn’t the delivery to affirm the mood or intention you have.

I suppose this is true of hypertext as well. you can never really gauge what the author specifically means, because generally there aren’t specific meanings or one set way of interpreting something.

the chicken (music) or the egg (culture)?

something I have always wondered about was the link between music and cultural trends. what came first? do cultural trends come from music or does music stem from cultural trends?

(the chicken came first)

one particular trend that has interested me is the link historically between drug culture and music. how certain genres of music have popped up around the same time as certain drugs, or how the two just seem to go so nicely – eg. rave culture & ecstasy, the psychedelic era, reggae/ska and marijuana. did the music come first or did the drugs? did people drop acid, start tripping balls and think “hey I’m going to play 5 hours of twangy guitar effects on loop and make lyrics about drowning in the quicksand of my troubled mind” or did they make the music first and discover that the only people who could tolerate the stuff they created were 7 hours into the depths of an acid trip (or pretentious idiots, like me, who actually enjoy psychedelic music regardless). did techno beats arise because somebody out there genuinely thought stripping electronic music down to its most basic form would be a good idea, or because people on a lot of ecstasy just want to bop their heads and dance to a fast tempo? did bob marley write ‘don’t worry be happy’ because he was so stoned that he literally didn’t have the mental capacity to care? I’m not saying that the two go hand in hand. that you have to be on acid to enjoy psychedelic music, or that you have to be on pills to enjoy techno. each has their time and place… but what I am saying, is that there is certainly a link between the two, and that drugs tend to enhance your experience of these genres. in fact there are whole genres that refer specifically to drugs such as ‘acid rock’, ‘stoner beats’ etc etc.

there has been research done into electronic/drum and bass music that points to a connection with the physical state of the listener. that certain frequencies of sound occur inside the head or body, with the sound absorbed inside. I suppose there is research somewhere about how acid and other psychedelics affect your brain and open you up to perceive more that is going on around you – therefore are more likely to appreciate the complexity of music. same can be said of the effects of marijuana and the sensation of relaxation.  does this mean that this music specifically caters to the sensations given by the substances that are related? or that it’s simply a natural coincidence?

(oh wow, I suddenly have the uncontrollable urge to dance around pumping my fists whilst eating a lollipop)

this theory can be transferred into other cultural trends, like dress sense and stereotypes. do people dress a certain way because of the music they listen to? or listen to the music they do because they dress a certain way? music affects more than your dress sense. it effects your perception of the world, your value system, your personality, your taste in other respects, your sexual preference, your opinion of people…the list goes on. we make assumptions about people depending on their music taste (and by extension, the way they dress and hold themselves in general). some music triggers phases and subcultures, particularly in adolescents that – we like to hope – we grow out of when we stop listening to the music (but is hilarious when people don’t- have you ever seen a 50 year old goth? it’s like…wow man, that’s commitment).


(kimmy j obviously listens to too much bullet for my valentine..)

I wonder what the ramifications of growing up listening to dr dre (90’s gangsta rap) and marilyn manson (do I even need to extrapolate) had on the way I am today. do I genuinely get along with women less than men because Dr Dre told me ‘bitches aint shit but hoes and tricks’?

(or does it at least explain my enjoyment for doing dishes?)

does it have some effect on my value system? my relationships? my uncontrollable need to swear like a bearded-unwashed-truckie on speed? who knows, but I am definitely aware on the effect the music I listen to has on my mood and my perception of the world. as soon as I hear the first few chords of ‘skinny love’ I immediately need to crawl into my bedroom and sob uncontrollably. and when I listen to rage against the machine whilst driving my car I suddenly have the urge to start running down people and screaming ‘fuq da poleece’.

(nemo loves rage against the machine) 

maybe we should all be a bit more aware of what our music taste subconsciously tells us. or maybe not. either way, I’d keep clear of miley unless you want to lose your soul.

do schools kill creativity?

I agreed with so much of what was said in the 20 minutes (which I’m surprised I watched in its entirety)  in fact I agreed with so much of what Sir Robinson was saying that I was just sitting there nodding…  this is something I’m sure I’ve touched on before in my other writing, but it’s something which is at the crux of this subject, and without understanding the fundamentals, I suppose you can’t really understand networked media. when we started this course we were given the spiel about how NM was going to reject the common educational model of lectures, ‘right and wrong’, student/teacher hierarchy, etc etc. and given the progressive nature of the course it makes sense. well virtually every statement sir robinson makes in this video relates to our course (and by extension, our careers) and given the fact that I agreed so much with the video, I suppose I have finally warmed to (and come to terms with) the purpose of the course and that subconsciously, I agreed with it all along (just didn’t understand the implications yet).

ironically, I couldn’t see the ‘progressive’ way this course being taught as true to my own lifestyle and learning habits. I didn’t recognise until now that, actually, I agree with the entire concept of what Adrian and the tutors are trying to do. it is completely valid. not only is it completely valid, but it is so agreeable with the core of my being and my own learning habits that I have no idea how I didn’t pick up on it earlier. I’ll refer specifically to education and some facts ken lays down (children starting school this year will retire in 2065 etc) after I address one thing first… and using the very same analogy ken uses, because it is so insanely relevant to my life right now (and what I’ve been writing about) that it is bordering on creepy… it’s like, hey I’ve been whinging about these things in every blog post and now a professor has come along and validated it, we’ve come full circle, haven’t we? ken tells the story of a dancer who is now world famous and successful. about how in today’s age she would have been diagnosed with ADHD. not only was it beautiful to hear about the resolution of her going to dance school and succeeding, but it also saddened me to think of all of the potential we are missing because of our closed-minded nature. in school we are taught abilities that are no longer relevant in this day and age. ‘intelligence’ is measured out by how well we can retain and blurt out information in an hour long exam period. well frankly, I think this is bullshit, and I will tell you why –

firstly. ken mentions something about degrees being way more accessible these days and that it is no longer such a big deal to have a degree. that tertiary education pretty much sets you up to be a professor and that’s about it. I wrote a big fat rant on this previously (about stepping out of university into no career and how your degree is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things). I see the HSC (or whatever the Victorian equivalent) as the same thing. completely irrelevant. what does this little mark out really tell you (or a future employer) about a person’s intelligence and capabilities? about the way they learn? I’m going to be honest and say I did exceedingly well in the HSC. but that has nothing to do with life. did it tell you that I worked hard, studied my ass off and persevered throughout the year? no. because I didn’t, in fact I nearly dropped out of high school several times in the process of completely year 12. does it tell you that I will be able to come up with new, innovative ideas and further somebody’s business? no. 80% of the assessments were churning out facts and figures, or talking out of my ass on a subject that was based upon rehashing old content. the exams measure one thing and one thing only – how good you are at retaining information and blurting it out under pressure. that’s not really a life skill that can be transferred into any other respect. I can’t think of a single job where I would benefit from being able to write out pages and pages of facts and figures that I remember reading. certain subjects are scaled according to what is believed to be more difficult or requiring higher skill – this is the same as university. certain subjects require higher marks to be accepted. as ken says, arts and humanities come somewhere low in the hierarchy. creativity and creative subjects, in general are not privileged – which brings me to-

secondly. back to ken’s story of the dancer. a lot of people don’t view creative skills, jobs or degrees with value. when I told my father I was choosing to skip going to university and do an intensive, selective film course instead, he was instantly disappointed. still to this day (if anything a little less brutally as at least I’m going to get a degree out of this course) he does not see ‘film’ to be a valid career. and if he thought this way about film, I don’t think I need to extrapolate on how he feels about my other big passions in life – music and burlesque. I remember being 15 years old and wanting to go to band practice and dad didn’t want me to because I needed to be home doing maths tutoring. if that situation doesn’t sum up the problem of our society then what else does. my dad isn’t a bad person. he’s just a reflection of the attitudes in our society. that the arts and creative disciplines don’t matter as much. in fact, it scares the shit out of me that I want to do a creative discipline because generally (unless you are brilliant) they are not paid well, and good jobs are hard to find. I am probably going to be broke and working in cafe’s all my life to fund my creative side-projects and it’s purely because creativity is not valued in society.

thirdly. we are taught from the get go that there is a concept of ‘right and wrong’. no wonder why people are so terrified to take risks and be creative! someone once said to me “fail fast, fail often, fail forward” which means essentially, keep making drastic experiments until one day you don’t fail at something. or, it’s okay to try things that are a bit out there, and it’s certainly okay to fail. without experimentation there are no new innovations. how can  you say this though in a society that teaches that there is only one right answer? one definition of intelligence? one view of what is considered to be, or not to be a valid career path?

I’m not sure, but like ken describes, this needs to change in the near future.

here is another video that I began watching, relevant to similar subject matter –

 

 

 

5.5

the way Nelson describes hypertext reminds me of this video that we had to make in film school a couple years back as a class exercise-

essentially the concept was creating a string of videos that link to eachother, allowing the audience to pick their ending… meaning endings can be infinite (almost) as the number of videos multiply out from each new situation, sort of like a family-tree type situation.

there were a few highly successful advertising campaigns with the introduction of youtube that worked on this principle –

it’s interesting (and I might be digressing slightly off the readings here) what the world has come to in terms of advertising and marketing thanks to the internet and the introduction of hypertext. on this site it goes through some current and upcoming trends for video marketing… it’s almost like in order to maintain the audience’s attention span they need to be fully immersed in the experience, no matter what it may be.

 

5

no lecture (or un unlecture) this week, so instead of talking about the lecture, I’m going to talk about all of the things I did instead of going to the lecture, like catch up on other assignments and drink coffee… not really…

I watched the youtube video adrian linked us to – “the machine is us/ing us”.

the quote about “every time we post or tag photos we are teaching the machine” really stuck with me. in fact so much so that I kind of blurred out the rest of what was being said (and there were some interesting points about web.2 – internet being driven purely by our collaboration and sharing of information/images/content – what the consequences of this were, having to change our perspective on ownership/identity/authorship etc etc etc) back to the point… not important. EVERY TIME WE POST…WE ARE TEACHING THE MACHINE- that could seriously be the tagline for one of those terrible 80’s futuristic horror movies about robots turning evil and society shutting down because of a computer virus… it’s scary that we have created an entity that is so user-driven and reliant on our content these days – that your interaction with the internet is mapped out and documented so that it learns to pre-empt your moves. I posted a photo on facebook once and not only did the internet estimate (correctly) who all of the faces were, but where we were. that’s kind of creepy isn’t it? I have complete albums on my iphoto which are categorised into who the pictures are of, and I didn’t even do this myself, my computer automatically hooked itself up to facebook and did that. if all of this activity is going on beneath the surface, without us even realising, then is anything safe? every person you see in today’s society has some form of iphone (or smart phone). and I am CERTAIN (might call me paranoid, but hey) that someone somewhere is in a big apple building, tracking our every move. where we are at any given moment, what we like, who we talk to, the lifestyle we lead… there’s already companies on the internet who can taylor specific advertising campaigns at specific audiences through monitoring their internet usage, what’s to say this can’t happen with our smart phones? i’m sure there’s apps in the background of our phone doing all sorts of things that it doesn’t advertise – recording our conversations, our passwords…and one day, other bodies will have access to this information, probably for a small price… think of it as life-hacking.  and think of how bad of a tool it could be in the hands of, say, a serial killer?

there is my old lady rant about the internet and how it is ruining life for today.

why squatting will make you a better person

if I had any advice to give to anybody suffering from some form of mental illness it would be to exercise. I’m not exaggerating when I say exercise probably saved my life. being a generally lazy person I can admit that sometimes it is hard to get yourself into an exercise regime. sitting in front of the t.v, watching biggest loser and judging all of the contestants seems much easier than getting off your bum and going to the gym. while doing copious amounts of squats and burpees has not only managed to tone my body and enhance my flexibility, it also has kept me (moderately) sane– and here are some reasons why;


1. exercise gives you endorphins

“..and endorphins make you happy. happy people don’t shoot their husbands, they just don’t”
I know I just quoted legally blonde which pretty much nullifies my argument, but elle woods totally has a point. when you workout you seem to have a happier disposition, are less aggravated and are therefore less likely to commit a drastic act like shooting your husband (or boyfriend, or partner, or friend, or housemate, or whatever).

2. exercise is good for self esteem-

and if you have high self esteem you are less likely to be depressed.
even if you are at the start of your fitness journey, you will notice how much better you start to feel about yourself virtually the second you start exercising. my problem with exercising was that I never used to be patient enough to wait around to see results and therefore couldn’t maintain it. when I didn’t see physical results immediately (and didn’t suddenly turn into megan fox overnight) I became disheartened and quit. when you view your fitness journey as a ‘process’ and enjoy the little gradual changes (including non-physical ones like lighter moods, more energy, etc) instead of focusing on the physical aspect, you begin to notice it’s a lot easier to keep up and to motivate yourself… and then eventually, you might get a pay-off when you notice your pants are too big for you or somebody tells you they can’t see your six chins anymore. that’s always good for morale.


3. you ALWAYS feel better after a workout

and you never regret doing one… unless you manage to break your ankle attempting to do the splits or kick over an expensive lamp in your apartment whilst practicing yoga. no matter how exhausted or sad or run down I feel, I can genuinely say I’ve never done a workout and thought “man I wish I sat in bed eating hungry jacks instead”. and to be honest, the guilt of not doing a workout and then having to make up excuses to yourself to validate your poor lifestyle choice and self-failure is way more effort to deal with than actually just getting off your ass and doing the thing.
4. exercise doesn’t have to be torture

generally when the words ‘gym’ and ‘exercise’ are mentioned, lazy people such as myself tend to run in the opposite direction because the thought of spending painstaking hours lifting weights and running on treadmills is on par with the experience of sticking thumbtacks in my eyelids… ain’t nobody got time for that. what a lot of people don’t seem to realise is that you don’t need to hit the gym to a) tone that ass and b) get a good workout. there are a plethora of different options – depending on your fitness levels and interests –  for workouts you can do. there’s walking, martial arts, swimming, sword fighting, vacuuming the house, about a billion forms of dance, yoga, pilates, pump and tone classes…the list is literally endless (because pretty much anybody can take anything and turn it into a workout, eg -)

I started my fitness journey doing 15 minute high intensity body weight home workouts. no matter how busy my day is, I always manage to find 15 minutes for a workout (and if you can honestly say that you can’t find 15 minutes to do a workout then maybe you have bigger problems to deal with). not only are they great because they are short, but they work insanely well. I dropped 3 inches from my bust – which never seems to shrink – and 4 inches from my waist in a couple of months of just doing these workouts, without any real change to my lifestyle or terrible eating habits. the great thing about these workouts is that they are a gateway to other, longer workouts. I am now able to also run for 40 minutes (which is a mean feat for a chain-smoker), do all sorts of flexibility exercises I never could and actually really enjoy my dance classes (instead of reeling in pain after doing one routine).

5. you sleep better or spend less time sleeping

a lot of people who are depressed have some serious issues with their sleeping pattern. either they sleep way too much (because they don’t want to get out of bed and face the world) or they sleep too little (insomnia). exercise not only regulates your sleeping patterns, but gives you more energy and a higher sex drive – true story, it has been proved by science –

so instead of spending all that unnecessary time sleeping, you spend it having sex instead.. which is great for your self esteem… and also a form of exercise… not to mention orgasms release even more endorphins, which make you happy, and happy people don’t shoot their husbands…

see, science. ain’t it grand.

 

if you still don’t believe me and/or are seriously lacking in motivation this site might give you some reason to hit the gym

 

a few situations in which you can be certain your barista is judging you

I’ve been making coffee for about six years now (admittedly, the earlier years were comprised of making beverages that taste more like dishwater than coffee). that’s longer than I’ve been doing a lot of things, and that is a lot of coffee faux pas that I have witnessed. in those six delightful years of being abused for not making coffees hot enough, I have come to make general, broad assumptions about people based on their choices. creating (uniformed) loose judgements about these people is a great way of passing time at work. I can almost guarantee if you do/order any of the below, your barista is definitely making the same connections I am, and judging you accordingly –

1. ordering soy milk anything – not so much a judgement, as a vivid mental image of the patron running to the toilet after I “accidentally” mistake the full cream milk for soy… a temptation I resist numerous times every day (and is getting exceedingly difficult to do). so to sum up, you are vulnerable in the hands of your barista and better smile when you order your goddamn coffee.

2. meat-head males who order skim milk… (now gently remove your tampon, and try again). I had one of the known members of a Melbourne bikie gang – gigantic guns, with grills in his teeth and covered in tattoos – come in and order a skinny latte… suddenly not so intimidating, buddy…

3. people who order a beverage with skim milk, and then proceed to have 4 sugars in it – you’ve got to be kidding me, right? the only thing which is possibly worse being –

4. having more than 3 artificial sweeteners in your drink, ever… (and then proceeding to sit outside with your “skinny latte-4 equals” and chain-smoking a pack of cigarettes, true story). I can only shake my head in pity and pray that your heart attack occurs somewhere other than in my workplace.

5. strong decaff – no. just no. nobody in their right mind actually enjoys the taste of decaff so you can’t even defend this by saying “I really wanted a coffee but my doctor told me to lay off the caffeine.” have you tasted decaff in your lifetime? it doesn’t even taste like real coffee. it’s like ordering a gourmet wagu-burger and then getting burnt piece of meat on bread. you might as well drink dishwater rather than ordering this beverage because it’s going to do the same thing for you. if you are so intolerant to caffeine then just order tea rather than trying to make yourself feel in the loop by ordering a beverage you are probably going to spend the next 4 minutes hating yourself for ordering.

6. a combination of any, or all of the above…

 

 

4.75

in class we were asked to write about what somebody else has taken away from the reading; crystal’s take-away idea from the readings this week was about self identity and the internet, how creating new identities and personas is so easy. while I didn’t read the article she did (I only did the first and second listed), I could automatically gage where it was going, just because I’ve written about the same thing in the past (in fact I think I wrote about it in my phubbing post earlier in the semester).

overextended & underpaid

following up from the previous post about the readings and not doing the greatest write up on the readings (also having not written another blog post about whatever else)… this week has legitimately been hell. I wrote something in my lecture-related post about the fact that doing uni full time, working and keeping up hobbies leaves no time for anything else (therefore has me constantly wondering why I’m doing any of this)… I’m literally not exaggerating. to give you a little idea of a typical day in my life I will give you the example of yesterday – wake up at 5.30, work until 3.30.. uni, dance class, home at 9, dinner, workout, bed and still not getting enough sleep before waking up… I don’t get “time off” until saturday at 10pm, at which point my only desire will want to be writing myself off and having fun like a normal 20 year old living out of home (a desire which I will have to suppress because on sunday I have to get up, go to work and catch up on all of the uni work I’ve been lagging behind with). I’m not complaining. it would be worse if I had a kid, or six, for that matter. and there’s people all over the world who do this every day.. the fact still stands that I enjoy this lifestyle much more than the end of last year which comprised of going to work for 4 hours in the evening, drinking a bottle of wine to myself upon my return home and then sleeping until 2pm the next day… not really a productive lifestyle…keeping myself busy gives me a distraction from focusing too much on my mindset, and stops me thinking about how I’m feeling.

the real point of this entire blog post was to share this picture I snapped while enjoying a cigarette and the very rare 5 minutes I have to myself every day just before going into dance class – an hour intensive on glove peeling –

…and to give some advice for anyone who wants to listen. never compromise taking time to do the things that make you happy, because in the end, those are the things that count…